I am really looking forward to doing some posts on Sola Scriptura as I think that topic is so important, but I have a few other posts to get to first. In the meantime, please visit Ellen's post on Sola Scriptura: The Authority of Scripture.
Challies also has a good article called Does Anyone Choose Hell?
When we speak of God's wrath coming on people rather than on the wicked, we invariably sense a oneness with them rather than with God. But this puts us in opposition to God and the righteousness of his ways.
Rectifying a Loving but Just God can be difficult for some people. This article helps explain the idea a bit better (the comment discussion is good also).
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The authority of Scripture is based on the authority of those who decided the Canon.
Tony, we are so far apart on our views of our final authority - you can know nothing outside of the church.
I can know nothing outside of God's Word - given by Him, not the church
The authority of scripture is based on God.
God's Word was not null until it was decided on by men.
The authority of scripture is based on God.
So God gave you your Bible? When did this happen?
When he wrote it.
Do you have a copy of the Bible in God's original handwriting?
No, do you?
No, do you?
Nope, that's why I have to rely on 2000 years of unbroken apostolic succession :)
Nope, that's why I have to rely on 2000 years of unbroken apostolic succession
Merely opinion!
Merely opinion!
phd4jesus, do you have a copy of the Bible written in God's original handwriting?
Tony, you know none of us has a Bible in God's handwriting and we don't need that in order to recognize the inspired Word of God.
We believe that God could use men to put the canon together. Certainly Jesus didn't come to the earth to suffer and die to pay the penalty for our sins and yet God can't put the canon together for us to proclaim this fact.
What is or is not God-breathed scripture is self-authenticating. Men did not establish what is scripture, they simply recognized it as what it already was - God's Word. God did not need his Word to be approved by men to "make it official".
If, as you said, "the authority of Scripture is based on the authority of those who decided the Canon", then the only authority that could decide on the canon is God.
We believe that God could use men to put the canon together.
Now we're getting somewhere. This is a point in which I am in complete agreement with you.
Then you trust that the men who put the canon together were inspired to do so by Almighty God?
Then you trust that the men who put the canon together were inspired to do so by Almighty God?
No, I have no proof that those men were "inspired". I think they used good discernment.
Carrie,
"No, I have no proof that those men were "inspired". I think they used good discernment."
I think Jesus said He would send the Holy Spirit to guide the Church in all, that is as in ALL truth. It would therefore seem that those who determined the canon of Scripture were indeed inspired, guided by the Holy Spirit, to determine which writings that had been circulating for the first few centuries after the resurrection, were indeed authentic Scripture. Otherwise, if you can't trust the authority that Catholics believe Christ entrusted to the Church he founded, then it would seem that all the early writings that were being presented as Scripture, the Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Mary, etc., etc., should just be put on the shelves at your local Christian bookstore, and let the people try to discern for themselves, which of the writings are indeed, inspired from God. Had no Bible been codified, but everyone who made the claim to writing authentic scripture been allowed over the past two millenium to have them be put out there for personal discernment and interpretation, do you think you could trust yourself to determine which of those writings were truly inspired?
DAvid it is your turn to answer a question.
Would please support your statement that the Holy Spirit would guide the Church...
From the following verses, the Holy Spirit is very personal, not the "Churches".
Proverbs 1:23
Behold, I will pour out my spirit on you; I will make my words known to you.
Matthew 28:19
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
Luke 1:15
"For he will be great in the sight of the Lord; and he will drink no wine or liquor, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother's womb.
John 14:26
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
John 14:16-17
"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.
John 16:13
However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.
John 16:26-27
"When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me, and you will testify also, because you have been with Me from the beginning.
Romans 15:16
to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles, ministering as a priest the gospel of God, so that my offering of the Gentiles may become acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit
Romans 8:26
In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words;
1 Corinthians 6:19
Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?
Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
1 Thessalonians 1:5
for our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction; just as you know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake.
2 Timothy 1:14
Guard, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treasure which has been entrusted to you.
Titus 3:5-6
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
Hebrews 2:4
God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will.
Then you trust that the men who put the canon together were inspired to do so by Almighty God?
No, I have no proof that those men were "inspired". I think they used good discernment.
Carrie, I'm just not "getting it" I guess. I believe, truly believe in my heart, that the guys who penned Scripture, and those who decided that it was Scripture, had God's hand firmly on theirs the whole time they were doing it. Because of that faith, I not only have faith in the Word of God, but I have faith that the information that those inspired by God have transmitted to me is truly the word of God, and not the word of man.
You are claiming (and please, correct me if I'm wrong) that even though you don't believe that these men who chose your canon were inspired by God, you accept their words as "good discernment"?
If they weren't inspired by God, how can you believe the Bible is God's word?
Let me ask you this first Tony since you are confident in your belief on this area. Why do you believe that the men who assembled the canon were inspired? And tell me if we are talking Hippo or Carthage.
This conversation has been picked up in the comment thread of the most recent post and I gave somewhat of an answer to you there, Tony.
Any further comments, please move up to the top post. Thanks!
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