"The grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of our Lord stands forever. Isaiah 40:8

04 August 2006

What A Long Strange Trip Its Been

If you have been reading along with some of the discussion on this blog, you will understand the title. I think the storm has passed.

Two days ago I had about 10 different posts swirling around in my head. Today my brain is fried. In fact, I'm so tired that I keep staring at the word "fried" and wondering if the spelling is right. You know how sometimes a word just doesn't "look right"? Oh well, I'm too lazy to look it up.

I'm gonna take a little break and figure out what I would like to talk about next. These last few days have revealed some new areas of interest for me and I hope to have enough neurons left to create some posts around these areas.

Okay, I won't leave you hanging (as if you didn't already know), I will still be doing some posts on Sola Scriptura (scripture alone)and Sola Fide (faith alone). And hopefully a post on the book of Galatians. In between I'll try to do something stupid or embarassing so I can have a funny post to mix things up a bit. No promises though.

39 comments:

Ellen said...

I'm sorry to you, too - that it turned out the way it did, that I "lost it", and that I helped it go downhill.

Carrie said...

Ah, you did fine. I think I could have mediated better to keep us on just one or two topics at a time.

Live and learn.

Thanks for your huge contribution to the discussion!

phd4jesus said...

Thanks Ellen.

e-Mom said...

A lonnnng read, but enlightening. I vote for a post on Galatians, Carrie. Blessings!

KnightofChrist said...

Ellen,

I want you to know, true Catholics are indeed saved, and we are Christians for any that doubt. For Catholics to be saved,

We must believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, Acts 16:31

We must endure to the end. Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13, Mark 13:13.

We must accept the Cross (suffering). Matthew 10:38, Matthew 16:24-25, Mark 8:34, Luke 9:23, Luke 14:27.

We must be baptized with water. Mark 16:16, John 3:3-5 Titus 3:5, I Peter 3:20-21.

We must be a member in God's true church. Acts 2:47.

We must confess our sins. James 5:16, I John 1:9

We must keep the Commandments of God. Matthew 5:19-20, Matthew 7:21

We must heed the words of St. Peter, the first Pope. Acts 11:13-14, Acts 15:7.

We must eat the flesh and drink the blood of Jesus Christ. John 6:51-58, I Corinthians 10:16, I Corinthians 11:23-29

Your Brother in the Most High Jesus Christ,
KoC

Carrie said...

I'll be honest, I am confused. Some Catholics here have said they do not know if they are saved or not and KoC says yes, Catholics are saved. The CC catechism says

"...There are seven sacraments in the Church: Baptism, Confirmation or Chrismation, Eucharist, Penance, Anointing of the Sick, Holy Orders, and Matrimony. This article will discuss what is common to the Church's seven sacraments from a doctrinal point of view." CCC 1113

then:

"The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation." CCC1129

and yet:

"The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

I'll admit it, I find it hard to follow along. I guess I could read through the whole CC catechism but I'm really not interested in doing that.

The Gospel message is pretty clear and pretty easy to explain. I don't understand why Catholicism is so unclear and so complicated.

That is why I am trying to stick with the one major doctrine that the CC denies and from which I believe all the other bad doctrines come, the denial of justification by faith alone.

Anonymous said...

What does 'justified' mean?

Carrie said...

What does 'justified' mean?

The short answer:

Justification is the act by which a sinner is made righteous before God by belief in Jesus. The biblical support of this idea says that the sinner is justified immediately following faith through grace. It is not earned but by faith alone.

I will be posting more on these ideas in the future in more detail. Hopefully this short answer will suffice for now.

michele said...

Any Catholic who says he's saved doesn't know the doctrine of his church. Sorry, but the Council of Trent is still binding:

CANON XVI.-If any one saith, that he will for certain, of an absolute and infallible certainty, have that great gift of perseverance unto the end,-unless he have learned this by special revelation; let him be anathema.

CANON XXX.-If any one saith, that, after the grace of Justification has been received, to every penitent sinner the guilt is remitted, and the debt of eternal punishment is blotted out in such wise, that there remains not any debt of temporal punishment to be discharged either in this world, or in the next in Purgatory, before the entrance to the kingdom of heaven can be opened (to him); let him be anathema.

Ellen said...

I think that part of the problem is that we not only disagree on doctrine - but also that the places where it sounds like we agree, we are using different definitions.

Roman catholicism and protestantism are farther apart than "the seat of power that doctrine and councils come from" would have us believe.

Ellen said...

(I'm trying very hard not to use offensive language, but I want to separate the people of the Roman catholic church from the leadership of the Roman catholic church - where the doctrine and catechisms come from - and I don't know how else to do it)

Elena said...

I appreciate your effort Ellen, truly.

The teaching body of the Catholic Church is called the Magisterium. Perhaps just using that term would suffice.

Carrie said...

Thanks Michele. The Council of Trent seems pretty clear. I can also go through and copy and paste from the comment section here the Catholics admitting that they don't know whether they are saved or not. Then there is the quote from the Cardinal that Ellen has posted more than once.

I don't know why this is continued to be argued. The Protestant stance and the Catholic stance are very different when it comes to the doctrine of justification.

Ellen said...

Magisterium it is, then.

KnightofChrist said...

The Holy Bible says the same as does Trent. As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13)."

"Adam and Eve, received God’s grace in a manner just as unmerited as anyone today, most definitely did demerit it—and lost grace not only for themselves but for us as well (cf. also Rom. 11:17-24). While the idea that what is received without merit cannot be lost by demerit may have a kind of poetic charm for some, it does not stand up when compared with the way things really work—either in the everyday world or in the Bible.

Regarding the issue of whether Christians have an "absolute" assurance of salvation, regardless of their actions, consider this warning Paul gave: "See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off" (Rom. 11:22; see also Heb. 10:26–29, 2 Pet. 2:20–21)."

Satan as well had the full graces and gifts of God, he was Gods favorite but he satan by his freewill choose to reject God, and fell from grace.

Carrie said...

KoC,

You really should site your sources when you copy over quotes like that.

No offense, but we are interested in personal thought and discussion, not quotes from Catholic.com

I'm not gonna even try to tackle what you have said. It is wrong and it is not biblical. If someone else wants to tackle the points, please do.

Again, you are denying the doctrine of justification by faith alone. That is denying Christ's FINISHED work on the cross.

KnightofChrist said...

No offense taken, you can not respond because well you can not respond. And what I pulled of Catholic.com is what I personally think so I used it. I am not denying Christ's finished work on the Cross. I could just as easy say that you Ma'am are denying God The Father's prefect creation of Adam and Eve when He gave them immaculate bodys (as we will one day have if "we remain till the end") and full graces. Or I could say you deny God The Father's ability to create an prefect angelic being, like Lucifer (which was prefect but by using free-will to reject and pride of sin fell from grace). You see you are denying freewill, freewill is not overriden by justification.

And YES am I as a Catholic saved and born again! I was saved, "just as the Bible says in 1 Ptr 3:20-21 and that it is through Baptism, water and the Spirit, that you are "born again," just as the Bible says in John 3:5.

You see, many Protestants believe that they are saved by making one single act of faith at one single point in time in their lives. Nowhere does Scripture say such a thing. As Catholics, however, we believe that salvation is a process which begins with our Baptism and continues throughout our lifetimes, just as the Bible teaches us.

There are so many places in Scripture, which talk about how one is "saved", but not one of them says we are saved by one act of faith at just one point in time. As I just mentioned, 1 Ptr 3:20 says we are saved by baptism. In Hebrews 12:14 it says that we will not see the Lord unless we are holy, and that we have to strive for this holiness. In Matthew 6:14-15, it says we must forgive others or we will not be forgiven. Can you attain salvation if God hasn't forgiven you? No! So, our forgiving others is necessary for our salvation.

1 Tim 2:15 says that woman will be saved through bearing children, if she continues in faith and love and holiness with modesty. John 6:54 says we will have eternal life by doing something...eating the flesh and drinking the blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. In Matthew 19, verses 16 and 17, Jesus is asked directly what one must do to have eternal life. Did He say, accept me into your heart once and that's it? No! Jesus said to keep the commandments and you will have life.

Yes, as Catholics we are born again. And, as Catholics we believe that we were saved, as Paul says in Rom 8:24; that we are being saved, as Paul says in 1 Cor 1:18; and that we will be saved, as Paul says in Rom 5:9-10, provided we persevere and keep our eyes on the prize. Salvation is a process, just as Catholics believe, and just as the Bible clearly teaches."

source biblechristiansociety.com
Sorry I am new to Blogger

Peace in Christ,
KoC

Ellen said...

You see you are denying freewill, freewill is not overriden by justification.

As I tell my kids, "I belong to a sovereign God who is in control of the universe."

Romans 8:33
Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.

Romans 9:11
though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad--in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call--

Romans 9:15
For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

Romans 9:18
So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

KnightofChrist said...

I as well belong to the Sovereign God who is in control of the universe.

And I believe a "literal" interpretation of the bible quotes you quoted and The Holy Bible.

Yet none of what you quote overrides Freewill, without Freewill we would be remote controlled robots of God, and since we sin, that would make God the author of sin. That is impossible, and that would be blasphemy.

Peace,
KoC

Ellen said...

Is God in charge of (sovereign over) your salvation, or are you?

Carrie said...

you can not respond because well you can not respond.

I can respond, I choose not to right now b/c I am tired. I have been answering comments for the past few days and I need a break.

If you are copying all that stuff from outside sources, please don't. It is long and not adding anything really.

You see, many Protestants believe that they are saved by making one single act of faith at one single point in time in their lives. Nowhere does Scripture say such a thing. As Catholics, however, we believe that salvation is a process which begins with our Baptism and continues throughout our lifetimes, just as the Bible teaches us.

The bible does not teach that. Give me the verse where the bible says that salvation is a process that begins with Baptism and continues throughout our life.

We are saved and justified by faith alone. From there we move into the sanctification process where were are molded to be more like Christ. Sancification is a process, salvation and justification are an act.

"And the jailer called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas. Then he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." Acts 16:29-31

KnightofChrist said...

Our God is Sovereign over all, Yes.

Yet was God in charge of and did He author the fall of Adam and Eve, or the pride of satan.

Christ died for all on the Cross, without Him there would be no salvation and we must believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and we must endure to the end. (Acts 16:31, Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13, Mark 13:13)

KnightofChrist said...

Did God The Father fail in His prefect and "finished" creation? Did Christ fail to complete and finish salvation on the Cross. NO. Because men have rejected God with sin, which they freely choose, does not make Christ or The Father failers, it is man that has failed if he rejects God who is truth.

Peace,
KoC

Ellen said...

Believe what you will...

For me, I can know that I have eternal life.

For you, you are unsure and will remain unsure until after death.

Elena said...

Believe what you will...

For me, I can know that I have eternal life.

For you, you are unsure and will remain unsure until after death.


Is that agree to disagree?

eph2810 said...

Sorry, Carrie - I deleted my first comment, because I mispelled a couple of words...so here we go again and hopefully I spell right this time:

Ouch - Mr. KoC. Instead of building up the body of Christ and being a witness to His love, grace and mercy, you Sir, you stomp on it!

Ellen said...

Elena, we definately disagree...on many things.

I have repented for my behavior here.

Carrie said...

Did Christ fail to complete and finish salvation on the Cross.

According to your religion, the answer is yes. That is why you must finish the work for him through the sacraments.

Look to this explanation from the Bible:

"Some men came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the brothers: "Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved." Acts 15:1

"Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace." Galatians 5:2-6

Now KoC, in place of circumcision above, insert your favorite sacrament, just one. It's the same idea.

I'm sorry, I wish off the top of my head I could point you to some resources to better understand the basic message of the Gospel (other than the Bible of course) but I'm not sure what would help at this point. If anyone has an idea, please share.

I'm not sure why a post on being brain-dead and needing a rest has cause more comments. I think it is some sort of conspiracy to kill the last few neurons I have remaining.

If anyone makes another comment that hurts my head, let him be anathema.

Ellen said...

Here's a good post that might make your head hurt less

Take a "sabbath" and close comments on all posts for a couple of days...

Elena said...

If anyone makes another comment that hurts my head, let him be anathema.

LOL! OK, made me giggle!

KnightofChrist said...

Ellen,

I believe in truth, I will have eternal life if I remain in Christ until the end of my life. I am Saved, I am being Saved every day I remain in Christ and He in me, and I will be Saved in the End as long as I do not reject God, like Adam, Eve, and satan.

eph2810,

Without Christ we are nothing, we can do nothing without Our Lord Jesus Christ. Christ is Truth, Christ is Love, Christ is Grace, and Christ is Mercy. If one does not know Christ they do not know true love, grace, or mercy.

I have not stomp on the precious body of Christ that would be blasphemy, what I have done is show that a true Catholic, someone who lives their faith completely, will infact be saved as they live in obdience to the True Church of Jesus Christ. And then I defended my statements from them that do not believe that truth.

Peace in Christ,
KoC

KnightofChrist said...

According to your religion, the answer is yes. That is why you must finish the work for him through the sacraments.

"There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church."
- Archbishop Fulton Sheen

While you do not hate the Catholic Church, you do misunderstand what the Catholic Church is truely. According to you my "religion" believes "Christ work was not complete on the cross". I would like you to find in the Catechism where that is quoted. You can not because it is not there.

Look to this explanation from the Bible:

"Some men came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the brothers: "Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved." Acts 15:1

"Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace." Galatians 5:2-6

Now KoC, in place of circumcision above, insert your favorite sacrament, just one. It's the same idea.


As a Catholic I am not allow to take out words of the Holy Bible and replace them with others. I am sorry...

It is not the "same idea", without believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, Acts 16:31 (and the other bible quotes I've quoted), the sacraments can not save you, after all "Christ instituted the sacraments of the new law... The seven sacraments touch all the stages and all the important moments of Christian life:[1] they give birth and increase, healing and mission to the Christian's life of faith." Again Christ gave us the sacraments, and without Christ we can not be saved.

Ellen said...

without Christ we can not be saved.

You have that part right.

Finished is "FINISHED".

As in IT'S ALL DONE.

KnightofChrist said...

The bible does not teach that. Give me the verse where the bible says that salvation is a process that begins with Baptism and continues throughout our life.

Indeed, The Holy Bible as a whole does teach this. I have given you many verses from the bible that teach this, and you have not believed.

As I quoted, 1 Ptr 3:20 says we are saved by baptism. Baptism is where we join the Body of Christ, or our church.

Hebrews 12:14 "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord"
Wouldnt you say to follow all people with peace and holiness, or you will not see the Lord, would be a process?

Matthew 6:14-15, "For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." I dont know about you, but for me forgiving people is a process, long and hard sometimes, and if we do not forgive others God will not forgive us, do you believe an unforgiven person can enter heaven. I do not.

1 Tim 2:15 "Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety."

If she continues in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety, she will be saved if she "continues" that would be a process.

John 6:54 "Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

Eating is a process, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ tells us to eat his flesh and drink His blood in Memory of Him so we may have Enteral Life, remembering Christ is a process, you dont just do it once, you do that your whole life if you remain in Christ.

Matthew 19:16-17 "And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."

Now, the commandments ALONE without God our Lord Jesus Christ will not save you, but Christ tells us if to keep the commandments which is a process, to enter into eternal life.


We are saved and justified by faith alone. From there we move into the sanctification process where were are molded to be more like Christ. Sancification is a process, salvation and justification are an act.

"And the jailer called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas. Then he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." Acts 16:29-31


The only place in The Holy Bible that "faith" and "alone" are together is...

James 2:19-26
"Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well,: the devils also believe, and tremble.

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

KnightofChrist said...

Ellen said...

without Christ we can not be saved.

You have that part right.

Finished is "FINISHED".

As in IT'S ALL DONE.


We are both right, about that, dear Sister in Christ.

The Peace of Our Lord be with you forever,
KoC

Ellen said...

There are three words used to describe what you are talking about.

Salvation (I will stand blameless because of the righteousness of Christ and the sacrifice of His blood, by grace, through faith)

Sanctification (the process of becoming pure)

Justification (actually, a legal term - to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be)

What is interesting is that both of the examples that James used - they're under the Old Covenant - the covenant of works.

James very clearly tells us that faith that has no works is dead and nobody denies that.

You are saying that
faith + works = salvation (maybe)

The Bible says
faith = salvation + works (we may know)

Carrie said...

I really should just throw out the anathema, but I'll wait.

It is not the "same idea", without believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, Acts 16:31 (and the other bible quotes I've quoted), the sacraments can not save you, after all "Christ instituted the sacraments of the new law... The seven sacraments touch all the stages and all the important moments of Christian life:[1] they give birth and increase, healing and mission to the Christian's life of faith." Again Christ gave us the sacraments, and without Christ we can not be saved.

I think you missed my point. Paul was speaking about a group that was ADDING circumsion to faith. It wasn't circumsion alone. Paul's whole point was that you cannot add to Christ's work on the cross. Salvation is a free gift. Acts 16:31 is a good verse. Why are the sacraments not mentioned there or anywhere else as necessary for salvation.

From the CCC:

1129 The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation.

From the 7th session of the Council of Trent:

CANON IV.-If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous; and that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not ineed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema.

The teaching of the RCC is that the sacraments are a necessary addition to faith in Christ for salvation. That denys God's free gift and Christ's FINISHED work on the cross.

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. Eph 2:8-9

Again Christ gave us the sacraments,

Where in the Bible does it say this?

Carrie said...

As far as your second comment KoC, Ellen has answered it well. You are confusing sanctification and justification. I don't know how else to explain it to you.

I will be doing more posts on justification by faith alone (with all supporting verses). If you are interested, please come back.

Carrie said...

I am closing down this comment section until Monday. Enjoy the rest of your weekend.

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