If you have been reading along with some of the discussion on this blog, you will understand the title. I think the storm has passed.
Two days ago I had about 10 different posts swirling around in my head. Today my brain is fried. In fact, I'm so tired that I keep staring at the word "fried" and wondering if the spelling is right. You know how sometimes a word just doesn't "look right"? Oh well, I'm too lazy to look it up.
I'm gonna take a little break and figure out what I would like to talk about next. These last few days have revealed some new areas of interest for me and I hope to have enough neurons left to create some posts around these areas.
Okay, I won't leave you hanging (as if you didn't already know), I will still be doing some posts on Sola Scriptura (scripture alone)and Sola Fide (faith alone). And hopefully a post on the book of Galatians. In between I'll try to do something stupid or embarassing so I can have a funny post to mix things up a bit. No promises though.
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29 comments:
I'm sorry to you, too - that it turned out the way it did, that I "lost it", and that I helped it go downhill.
Ah, you did fine. I think I could have mediated better to keep us on just one or two topics at a time.
Live and learn.
Thanks for your huge contribution to the discussion!
Thanks Ellen.
A lonnnng read, but enlightening. I vote for a post on Galatians, Carrie. Blessings!
I'll be honest, I am confused. Some Catholics here have said they do not know if they are saved or not and KoC says yes, Catholics are saved. The CC catechism says
"...There are seven sacraments in the Church: Baptism, Confirmation or Chrismation, Eucharist, Penance, Anointing of the Sick, Holy Orders, and Matrimony. This article will discuss what is common to the Church's seven sacraments from a doctrinal point of view." CCC 1113
then:
"The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation." CCC1129
and yet:
"The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
I'll admit it, I find it hard to follow along. I guess I could read through the whole CC catechism but I'm really not interested in doing that.
The Gospel message is pretty clear and pretty easy to explain. I don't understand why Catholicism is so unclear and so complicated.
That is why I am trying to stick with the one major doctrine that the CC denies and from which I believe all the other bad doctrines come, the denial of justification by faith alone.
What does 'justified' mean?
What does 'justified' mean?
The short answer:
Justification is the act by which a sinner is made righteous before God by belief in Jesus. The biblical support of this idea says that the sinner is justified immediately following faith through grace. It is not earned but by faith alone.
I will be posting more on these ideas in the future in more detail. Hopefully this short answer will suffice for now.
Any Catholic who says he's saved doesn't know the doctrine of his church. Sorry, but the Council of Trent is still binding:
CANON XVI.-If any one saith, that he will for certain, of an absolute and infallible certainty, have that great gift of perseverance unto the end,-unless he have learned this by special revelation; let him be anathema.
CANON XXX.-If any one saith, that, after the grace of Justification has been received, to every penitent sinner the guilt is remitted, and the debt of eternal punishment is blotted out in such wise, that there remains not any debt of temporal punishment to be discharged either in this world, or in the next in Purgatory, before the entrance to the kingdom of heaven can be opened (to him); let him be anathema.
I think that part of the problem is that we not only disagree on doctrine - but also that the places where it sounds like we agree, we are using different definitions.
Roman catholicism and protestantism are farther apart than "the seat of power that doctrine and councils come from" would have us believe.
(I'm trying very hard not to use offensive language, but I want to separate the people of the Roman catholic church from the leadership of the Roman catholic church - where the doctrine and catechisms come from - and I don't know how else to do it)
I appreciate your effort Ellen, truly.
The teaching body of the Catholic Church is called the Magisterium. Perhaps just using that term would suffice.
Thanks Michele. The Council of Trent seems pretty clear. I can also go through and copy and paste from the comment section here the Catholics admitting that they don't know whether they are saved or not. Then there is the quote from the Cardinal that Ellen has posted more than once.
I don't know why this is continued to be argued. The Protestant stance and the Catholic stance are very different when it comes to the doctrine of justification.
Magisterium it is, then.
KoC,
You really should site your sources when you copy over quotes like that.
No offense, but we are interested in personal thought and discussion, not quotes from Catholic.com
I'm not gonna even try to tackle what you have said. It is wrong and it is not biblical. If someone else wants to tackle the points, please do.
Again, you are denying the doctrine of justification by faith alone. That is denying Christ's FINISHED work on the cross.
You see you are denying freewill, freewill is not overriden by justification.
As I tell my kids, "I belong to a sovereign God who is in control of the universe."
Romans 8:33
Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.
Romans 9:11
though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad--in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call--
Romans 9:15
For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
Romans 9:18
So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
Is God in charge of (sovereign over) your salvation, or are you?
you can not respond because well you can not respond.
I can respond, I choose not to right now b/c I am tired. I have been answering comments for the past few days and I need a break.
If you are copying all that stuff from outside sources, please don't. It is long and not adding anything really.
You see, many Protestants believe that they are saved by making one single act of faith at one single point in time in their lives. Nowhere does Scripture say such a thing. As Catholics, however, we believe that salvation is a process which begins with our Baptism and continues throughout our lifetimes, just as the Bible teaches us.
The bible does not teach that. Give me the verse where the bible says that salvation is a process that begins with Baptism and continues throughout our life.
We are saved and justified by faith alone. From there we move into the sanctification process where were are molded to be more like Christ. Sancification is a process, salvation and justification are an act.
"And the jailer called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas. Then he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." Acts 16:29-31
Believe what you will...
For me, I can know that I have eternal life.
For you, you are unsure and will remain unsure until after death.
Believe what you will...
For me, I can know that I have eternal life.
For you, you are unsure and will remain unsure until after death.
Is that agree to disagree?
Sorry, Carrie - I deleted my first comment, because I mispelled a couple of words...so here we go again and hopefully I spell right this time:
Ouch - Mr. KoC. Instead of building up the body of Christ and being a witness to His love, grace and mercy, you Sir, you stomp on it!
Elena, we definately disagree...on many things.
I have repented for my behavior here.
Did Christ fail to complete and finish salvation on the Cross.
According to your religion, the answer is yes. That is why you must finish the work for him through the sacraments.
Look to this explanation from the Bible:
"Some men came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the brothers: "Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved." Acts 15:1
"Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace." Galatians 5:2-6
Now KoC, in place of circumcision above, insert your favorite sacrament, just one. It's the same idea.
I'm sorry, I wish off the top of my head I could point you to some resources to better understand the basic message of the Gospel (other than the Bible of course) but I'm not sure what would help at this point. If anyone has an idea, please share.
I'm not sure why a post on being brain-dead and needing a rest has cause more comments. I think it is some sort of conspiracy to kill the last few neurons I have remaining.
If anyone makes another comment that hurts my head, let him be anathema.
Here's a good post that might make your head hurt less
Take a "sabbath" and close comments on all posts for a couple of days...
If anyone makes another comment that hurts my head, let him be anathema.
LOL! OK, made me giggle!
without Christ we can not be saved.
You have that part right.
Finished is "FINISHED".
As in IT'S ALL DONE.
There are three words used to describe what you are talking about.
Salvation (I will stand blameless because of the righteousness of Christ and the sacrifice of His blood, by grace, through faith)
Sanctification (the process of becoming pure)
Justification (actually, a legal term - to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be)
What is interesting is that both of the examples that James used - they're under the Old Covenant - the covenant of works.
James very clearly tells us that faith that has no works is dead and nobody denies that.
You are saying that
faith + works = salvation (maybe)
The Bible says
faith = salvation + works (we may know)
I really should just throw out the anathema, but I'll wait.
It is not the "same idea", without believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, Acts 16:31 (and the other bible quotes I've quoted), the sacraments can not save you, after all "Christ instituted the sacraments of the new law... The seven sacraments touch all the stages and all the important moments of Christian life:[1] they give birth and increase, healing and mission to the Christian's life of faith." Again Christ gave us the sacraments, and without Christ we can not be saved.
I think you missed my point. Paul was speaking about a group that was ADDING circumsion to faith. It wasn't circumsion alone. Paul's whole point was that you cannot add to Christ's work on the cross. Salvation is a free gift. Acts 16:31 is a good verse. Why are the sacraments not mentioned there or anywhere else as necessary for salvation.
From the CCC:
1129 The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation.
From the 7th session of the Council of Trent:
CANON IV.-If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous; and that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not ineed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema.
The teaching of the RCC is that the sacraments are a necessary addition to faith in Christ for salvation. That denys God's free gift and Christ's FINISHED work on the cross.
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. Eph 2:8-9
Again Christ gave us the sacraments,
Where in the Bible does it say this?
As far as your second comment KoC, Ellen has answered it well. You are confusing sanctification and justification. I don't know how else to explain it to you.
I will be doing more posts on justification by faith alone (with all supporting verses). If you are interested, please come back.
I am closing down this comment section until Monday. Enjoy the rest of your weekend.
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